oops, but he did support Issler

Issler

tl;dr don't nerf high sec or see eve die?

looking forward to your campaign this year for issler

Speaking of which, is your sig some kind of ironic reverse troll or something?

So you went to the trouble to come up with and create a profitable business but your not willing to put in the same investment of isk and same sort of time/effort to grow it? I mean I supposed your entitiled to that opinion.

The reason "nullseccers" don't want to do industry in their POSes is solely due to reasons you don't run into in high-sec as I explained before.

I'm not suggesting I think that removing station based services is the only option, infact increasing station slot costs could work as well, that said; I really think it would be beneficial to the game as a whole if every player high, low, or null sec, had to make an investment and guard that investment in order to compete in industry at high profit levels.

If CCP allowed multiple outposts per system, most nulsec areas would then have the potential to easily equal hisec for industry and research, but you would have to work for it.
Actually, it wouldn't. Outposts are still so hideously unable to even begin to come close to the capabilities of even a single station that you'd run out of planets long before you got something that even remotely resembled a highsec system.

I suppose I'll have to post my standard improvement requirement list in this thread tooGǪ

1. One outpost per system probably has to remain for sov reasons (sov needs a revamp, but let's break one thing at a time).
2. Every outpost type gets 50 each of every industry slot type. Industry-specific outposts get twice that (up from a best-case scenario of 10 of one type).
3. Every outpost type gets 20 offices; Gallente outposts get twice that (up from 4GÇô8 / 24).
4. Every outpost type gets a 30% refinery; a 50% refinery is a single basic upgrade.
5. Basic industry upgrades add 50 each of every slot type (up from 5 of a specific type); Intermediate upgrades add 100 (up from 7); Advanced upgrades add 150 (up from 9). Time bonuses could probably remain the same.

And as I've already replied, the logistical challenges of POS manufacturing (transporting minerals to the POS, dividing minerals between various arrays, navigating/maneuvering a slow, cumbersome ship, etc.) are not sec-specific. If nullsec doesn't enjoy the task, it's nuts to suggest that highseccers should.

But "not willing to put in the same investment of isk and same sort of time/effort to grow it?" What does that even mean? I'm manufacturing now in npc stations usually on site exactly where my goods are sold. Why in the world would I want to operate multiple POS's, increasing my own costs and logistics? Because I sure don't. I fly around in a slicer delivering bpcs. I'm operating at ends of regions just to pipe goods down there to folks who are far from hubs ....because it's harder. A difficult path always has less competition. That and I genuinely know what it felt like when I was in those places for various reasons and couldn't get the basic things I needed on a day to day basis.

I guess I just don't understand why we have skills that allow the setup of station manufacturing jobs remotely, or the ability to buy/sell items remotely if none of that will soon be relevant? Why have players work on building standings with npc corps to achieve perfect refine rates if refining at a POS will be superior? Everything about the current system centers around station manufacturing. For an idea that gets thrown around so casually, the impact of such a change would affect everyone. And in highsec it would affect most folks negatively - new players disprortionately so.

In my specific case, I worked for months to build up my standings with over a dozen npc corps specifically to increase my options in-game. And yet I still run into situations where I'm in a system without a station belonging to one of them. Just two days ago, I spent 6 hours in a cov ops scouting systems because my system and all others within 3-4 jumps were mined out. I'm now 10 jumps from that location. That sort of thing happens all the time. Highsec is dynamic. You adapt and move on. But that only works because I'm not tethered to a point in space. If I had to relocate a POS every time I relocated myself, that's all I'd do.

But just because I'm opposed to my time investment in mechanic grinding being made worthless, opposed to my costs and effort being increased exponentially for the same isk, because I have no desire to be tethered to a single point in space, or my game being made orders of magnitude more complicated, does not have anything to do with being unwilling to work.

Quite the opposite actually.

YK

If anyone at all thinks that the quality of my gameplay will not be decreased by necessitating flying around in a freighter carrying fuel blocks instead of a slicer carrying bpcs, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

YK

Newbies who want to go null sec should have appropriate pirate-faction facilities available at something the most similar to hi sec. Something like a special wormhole they can enter when they have just created their character. The interior of that WH would be hi sec and they can learn the ropes like the hi sec "cousins", then they can leave that WH and be at the fringes of a NPC nullsec area. They can go back for say 1 week tops then the WH can't be entered any more (else older people would exploit the WH providing high sec like crazy).

Right. As an industrialist competing for ever-decreasing profit margins, raising the cost of using station manufacturing slots and decreasing station refining yield has been proposed in conjuction with better refining/manufacturing at high-sec POS's. Skills trained to start manufacturing jobs remotely and standings with npc corps would be irrelevant.

Any industrialist with common sense and basic math skills will recognize there is no choice if this is done.

YK

What if all facets of industry were easier at a POS than using NPC facilities? What if there were no NPC stations with both refineries and assembly lines? What if POSes could use PI-style processing lines, would that be a benefit to the industrialist?

They really aren't. Those numbers were quite carefully picked to make a maxed out industry system be exactly as good as the best highsec industry systems. No more, no less.

So that's just what's needed to be on par, slot-wise. It does not account for any of the other benefits highsec has. If anything, those numbers could be 50-70% higher if we want to move null into some actual GÇ£betterGÇ¥-territory.

What's a portal in WoW? You seem to have experience with that game, I don't.

This will be important for the next quote.



That you think being able to dock in an outpost that you own is a bonus really says it all.

FD, so far you've called me risk averse in this topic and lazy in another for expressing my opinions. Neither is accurate. And I own a POS. I don't own a dozen of them and do not have POS's stationed across known space. Which is never going to happen.

You again write that boosting manufacturing returns at a high sec POS is some kind of reward for owning one despite countless examples of why tethering a dynamic industry to a stationary object is not beneficial. (Stop doing me favors!) It would be a logistical nightmare for the same exact reasons cited in this topic explaining why it's a nightmare for null players.

Debating whether everything I've invested into my gameplay for the past 14 months is going to be made pointless does frustrate me as the consequences are potentially game-changing to an unacceptable degree. But I play this game because its fun. Piloting a freighter isn't. In fact, it's my least-favorite activity in the game. So tieing my least-favorite activity in the game to my primary source of income isn't something I'm ever going to be a vocal supporter of. How dumb would that be? This change would at best, make my game vastly less enjoyable and at worst end it entirely.

So until the black day comes to pass ushering in changes which ruin my game, I'm going to be a vocal opponent.

For me, there is no other option.

It's not personal. So if my opposition offends anyone, I apologize in advance.

YK

Not quite.

I can make X produce for Y cost.

I can make 3X product for 2Y cost.

The actual cost isn't relevant, as long as it's within my means. Because the profit is higher.

I'll admit, it wasn't well worded.

POS towers & outposts are two completely different things.

MY POSTS FOR NULLSEC!

So you will be fine with high sec stations also charging the same sum to every pilot that uses them then.

So long as it is cheaper and easier to produce in high sec then thats where I will continue to build.

Being able to dock in an outpost is a feature, not a bonus. Just as POS's being awful is a feature & not a bonus.

Given that the bulk of my market is in VFK no, no I don't want to be in high sec. But because high sec is is the cheapest place to be thats where I stay. Its where everyone else will stay too because who in their right mind wants to make less isk?

And that's the one real recurring and true issue.

Even if hi sec stations refined at 10% efficiency, even if people had to only use POSes, they'd still stick to hi sec, including you.

This is why I say that nerfing hi sec is pointless. As long as the very "hi sec concept" exists, regardless of how much you'll nerf it, people will still firmly stick to staying there and even null sec industrialists will stick in there.

That's why I say that the only "cure" is removing hi sec completely and re-implement gradual security "decline" tied with increasing offered features (not income, *features* and capabilities).

Look at mining. Income has dropped 5 times since last year's HK days, it might still drop another 5 times and people will still do it.

PI? The same. Hi sec planets suck, there's a sensible tax yet only a fraction bothers doing PI outside of hi sec.
Hi sec L4 missions? The same. From > 100M per hour now they might be down to 30-40 yet people firmly sticks doing them.
Why? Simple. Because they are the slack, casual, no brainer and still with positive profits expectation over time.

Hi sec gives low losses, removes any risk of losing stuff (locked in hostile station or popped POS) but most of all it gives positive profits expectation over time. Less than everywhere else? Nobody cares, plenty enough to keep buying PLEX, ships and whatever.

So, once CCP will have spent half year+ improving null sec industry, in the end 95% of the playerbase won't give a crap, because there's always the fail-safe positive profits expectation over time zone.

Only a full blown solution with hi sec removal would actually affect gameplay to really make people leave such comfort place.

That's probably the reason why CCP have not spent half year+ improving null sec industry while nerfing hi sec: because it'd be irrelevant to any but a minority who are ready for more profit without the fail safe zone.

And they already are, by a mile.

Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation.

Sure as long as you move mine able moons to high sec only while you're at it..

See what I did there? Do you see it? huh? huh?

I dont. I think its ****** as well. It is, however, a source of vast wealth for null sec players. Unfortunately the few that are in power positions are the only ones that truly benefit.

The ISK is there to be had in null sec in far greater quantities than high. The only ones stopping you are other players. Null Sec's problems are 10% system and 90% player.

They never want to admit they they are the cause of most of their own problems.

If this is what you're basing the legitimacy of your argument on no wonder you all keep falling flat on your face. Its this sense of entitlement that fuels the irrational demands and logic being spewed out from null sec bears.

Well, then we can have the discussion about industry again after the sovereignty mechanics change, because right now it would be a waste of developer time.

What game mechanic forces the entire population of nullsec to cannibalize each other and everything else that comes into it?

Like a big amorphous fungal growth it consumes everything that is not protected by Concord and some things that are too.

No the problem is that the nullsec population and their leadership look at Jita and demand the same from CCP. They want a nullsec Jita.

For the industry to move to nullsec. As if it was taken from them. And they believe that the solution is to make high sec less safe. That the market and industry will spread out more then.


But nullsec is coarse. To such a extreme degree that efficient industry is impossible. Not because CCP keeps the industry from them but because they scare away the industry.

The biggest issue in null sec without question is the people in null sec. They made their bed. They can lie on it now.

Now restate it honestly as "we would like to do industry in null sec but it's more convenient in hi sec".

This sounds better and indeed hi sec is more convenient and indeed null sec should be buffed a lot, but don't make it show like you are poor helpless victims of a system you chose to embark into.

Apparently, like it or not, back at the dawn of the game, CCP decided that going in null sec meant to live an harsh life, that EvE would be based on a center-periphery model and that certain things would suck when done in null sec.

Meh.

Nothing will change in sov space until those in power have a change in philosophy and attitude towards the rest of Eve. It was in their power to turn their sections of SOV space into trade and industrial friendly areas and instead everyone of them to a T rubbed their hands together in greed and power and locked out everyone else while they watched their wallets fill with isk from the moon goo spigots.

They were so obsessed with their greed and status quo they blued up almost 70% of SOV space. Now everyone else is supposed to bow down and bend over as they want to take from High Sec and force High Sec folks to want to play in an environment like that?

Im sure all we will hear is more blame on mechanics and no admittance of blame on themselves, which is to be expected (consider the source) but folks are wise to them and the real cause of their problems as this point so that everytime they cry on the forums folks just roll their eyes.

No thanks. Honestly, the last people anyone should be listening to about making EVE "better" are the clowns that turned null sov into what it is today.

EvE is a sandbox (sadly with an hi sec, should get rid of that) with a very high degree of freedom given to the players.


Assuming what you say is right:
If those players are stupid enough to work like dummies for the "wealth in few hands", what's wrong with it?
I mean, there's no hardcoded rule or law forcing people to obey and enslave for others to get rich.
Just rebel, and kick those "few hands" and then spread the wealth between everybody.


But knowing what you say is not that right:
Alliance members let the "few hands" decide who gets what and to spend that wealth in ships replacements and whatsnot.
Do the ship replacements, free skill books etc. count as "being there for all to have"? You can bet they do.

Do those few hands also administer the whole alliance, spend time and ability in diplomacy, organize with the corp officers and FCs? Yes they do.

Do they organize alliance logistics, buy sov structures, setup bridges? Yes they do.

So.... tell it again... are those few hands hoarding the wealth or are you forgetting about the LOT of stuff everyone in the alliance benefits from and thus the wealth is shared?

If they tell you that, it means you did nothing worth enough to deserve 1 skill book. I am quite sure their officers are ready to shell the billions to assist those they consider deserving that.

You do like we did: harden up, perform weekly corp / alliance ops to farm ISK / minerals and then go conquer moons to stop performing the boring weekly corp / alliance ops.

We had full fitted capital ships replacement program, even before owning our first moon.

Meh, is it just me or the current players are way softened compared to the past?

It looks like own SOV space in your head at this point.

You stay classy and keep sticking to the points being debated mkay......

Yeah, that's kind of the problem.
An entire region of fully upgraded nullsec infrastructure would still be inferior to just a handful of systems in highsec.
So the scale of production is really quite limited, especially compared to the general size of alliances that hold that amount of space.

So of course we don't want to pay the bill for it. It's not worth paying it.

You said previously you have little experience with outposts, yet you claim to know everything about them. Outposts are quite expensive to setup & upgrade. You seem to be under the impression that it is free.

They've never set up an outpost, so they have no idea about the logistics involved (which is after all the costs of getting the parts).

In short: They're ignorant about the thing they're an "expert" in.

How much is the cost to keep an NPC station in highsec running (that people use like crazy) again?

If CCP allowed multiple outposts per system, most nulsec areas would then have the potential to easily equal hisec for industry and research, but you would have to work for it.
Actually, it wouldn't. Outposts are still so hideously unable to even begin to come close to the capabilities of even a single station that you'd run out of planets long before you got something that even remotely resembled a highsec system.

I suppose I'll have to post my standard improvement requirement list in this thread tooGǪ

1. One outpost per system probably has to remain for sov reasons (sov needs a revamp, but let's break one thing at a time).
2. Every outpost type gets 50 each of every industry slot type. Industry-specific outposts get twice that (up from a best-case scenario of 10 of one type).
3. Every outpost type gets 20 offices; Gallente outposts get twice that (up from 4GÇô8 / 24).
4. Every outpost type gets a 30% refinery; a 50% refinery is a single basic upgrade.
5. Basic industry upgrades add 50 each of every slot type (up from 5 of a specific type); Intermediate upgrades add 100 (up from 7); Advanced upgrades add 150 (up from 9). Time bonuses could probably remain the same.

Also, let's compare stations to POSes, another really GREAT and POPULAR manufacturing alternative !

Instead of the actual method used, you know: "Jita and JF combo"

Yet having five high sec systems that out produce all of nullsec combined is perfectly fine. Even with 400 slots high sec would out produce null. What exactly is unbalanced about tippias idea?

That would mean single stations in high sec would have more slots than entire null systems.

it's not about punishing for choice. It's about choice itself.

you have chosen to do industry in place where it is not as easy and good - it's your choice. Deal with it.

other examples:
you have chosen to live as criminal - don't cry about SS, NPC aggro and all this stuff. You made your choice.
you have chosen to live in WH - don't ask "why there is local everywhere and i have no local?" or "give me stations!". You made your choice.
i have chosen to run my pimped carebear mobile into low-sec: i have no rights to ask CCP "make it safer for me". I made my choice.

The same is with 0.0: people made their choice to live there. They have all the rights to live everywhere but they have chosen 0.0.

tried to change subject? failed.

I said what i said: it's your choice.

To answer to your "some parts are broken": yes, i can agree 0.0 sov is broken if we speak about industry. However it was "broken" from start. And everybody knows it. At the result 0.0 sov is bad for industry. You can push theme "CCP badly designed 0.0 sov industry and needs to reimplement it". However you can't speak about punishing players "for their choice to live in 0.0 sov".

Given that high sec stations are even cheaper than outposts I dont see why you are bringing up POS costs.

Unless you are gunning for either a slot nerf to high sec or vastly higher costs for using the slots

Tippia takes into account the game limitation that hi sec does not have: max 1 outpost per system. So, in order to make a null sec system as good as the average 2-3 stations hi sec system, it'd have to support at least twice / thrice as many slots.

Of course then he/she proceeds exaggerating the numbers to support a certain "faction".

ok. then let me know when outposts got their slots reduced? What did CCP say when they made this change?

Or let's speak about POSes: when they lost they refining efficiency?

Or maybe once outposts couldn't be recaptured?

Maybe you can even show the point in time when industry in 0.0 "sov" space wasn't bad?

However it was "broken" from start.

Solution proposal: NISK

Null sec wants to be completely autonomous. Let them. Let them effectively secede from the Union, and give them their own currency, NISK (Null Inter-Stellar Kredits) that can only be used in null to purchase null goods and services. Give null their POS upgrades and increase the number of available production slots by a factor of x10,000.

Sever all ties with "civilized" space completely, except 1 gate connection in each of the 4 empire's space. And that one connection should be on the furthest fringe system of space, as far away from any trade hub as possible. These 4 systems should be upgraded to 1.0 security and patrolled by CONCORD.

Goods produced in null space with NISK have 0 value anywhere else. Passing through one of the gates with illegal NISK goods will result in loss of ship and cargo. NISK can not be converted to ISK, or traded to other players outside of null space.

All null space residents receive a -10.0 security status that resets back to -10.0 daily, at every downtime.

Goods produced with ISK can be transported from high sec into null sec after paying a 50% sales tax.

It's perfectly fine and dandy considering because it is vital that all the gimmick 3 alt corps of highsec cannot bear to have a hair nerfed from the teet of low cost casual-newbie-friendly highsec npc stations, or eve will die, it's literally our fault that we try to blow up all neutrals in sov space.

The one repeating your own, self defeatist mantra here is you.


Do you even understand that my alts had (and still partly have) enough POSes that I only get huge advantages by any possible POS buff and NPC nerf?
And despite that I don't immediately hop in the "I ONLY SEE MY OWN PROFIT FIRST" bandwagon, because I can understand others who are not yet at a certain progress and would be blasted by some of the absurd proposals being written in these threads.

Anyway I am all for making hi sec slots costs = POS costs and to heavily increase null sec slots.

You are raining on the ocean here, sorry.

The only things that I am totally against is when people make choices knowing too well about the drawbacks and then come on the forums: not only to have the drawbacks removed (most are stupid drawbacks indeed) but also to have others be damaged in the process. That reeks of spoiled people who refuse to accept the responsibility of their choices and actually reverse them on somebody else.

The exact mechanics would have to be based on some sort of moving average, taking into account the ever changing fuels costs. A plus delta could be considered as incentive for POS owners to have also to pay the structures in advance (amortization costs), I am really forcing myself staying neutral on this, because as I said, the more the POSes improve the better I do .




I did not cover NPC facilities to 30% base because we already have some of them in hi sec (and NPC null) and some experiments on those would indicate that:

- The loss for an established character is low enough to not impact a sufficient deal to justify such a vast game change.

- The loss for a new player is high enough to screw them royally off and push well away their ability to start competing in the game. EvE needs all but some additional though wall thrown in the face of new players to keep the ongoing players turnover.

Null HAS a working industry. You null bears seem to think that you need the best version of every aspect of the game available in your own back yard. That's perfectly fine with me. You all want to be special snowflakes and be above the rest of the population, I'm fine with that too.

Giving null their own currency solves all the issues at hand. You're effectively cut off from dependence on high sec industry, logistics problems are eliminated, and you're still free to build the player-based economy that you should be building anyway, but aren't.

Wait. You mean that no one area of space can have everything? Is it possible that they're in some way dependent on each other as part of a bigger picture? That interaction between the two is a necessity by design?

Say it ain't so.

you are saying it like anyone from high-sec would care about how vibrant is 0.0

the main problem here is: this rebalance can't be done without nerfing high-sec. NERFING HIGH-SEC BECAUSE OF SOME WHINY 0.0-SECCERS. That's why you will not see enough support from high-seccers.

Null's reward is bigger, substantially bigger than the rest of Eve. The rest of New Eden can't help it if you're giving all your moongoo profit to your alliance leaving your individual players with a pat on the back telling them "at'ta boy!"and sht in both hands.

If null was handed everything, the rest of New Eden laid waste, those alliances who you've handed the chains to the dog collars around your corps' necks would still want more from you and you'd still be left with figuring out how to improve null by taking more from an empty Hisec.

Well, you seem to have seen some stuff in those dev blogs that I didn't, so I thought I'd see if you had an inside track.

If Nullsec becomes self-sufficient, as so many nullbear types seem to want, EVE's economy will go to hell as Highsec withers and dies. Healthy economies trade between regions, and different regions have comparative advantages in different products. If nullsec is simply better for everything, as you advocate, then highsec will bleed wealth like crazy, because it's not self-sufficient (and I bet that you're not advocating giving highsec access to tech moons and high-end ores so it can be self-sufficient as well).

Tech Moons aren't 0.0 only. There are some in (northern)lowsec, for example Iitanmadan has at least 2. Though I do agree the change they made to tech was a bad one.

And for what reasons is this desirable?

Nothing is stopping the game from growing, except that when people go out to null, they get slaughtered. It has nothing to do with the cost of building a Rifter out there.

Industrialists already have more options than just high sec. (You do realize that it takes quite a highly skilled industrialist to build a supercapital, and those are only built in null?) If players are too stupid to realize and understand their options, then they are supposed to be worse off. Not everyone ships things TO Jita, and transactions of all sorts take place in markets other than The Forge. It just so happens that The Forge has a large population, so a large volume of the market activity that takes place happens there.

Traders already have reasons to go to null and low sec. You said yourself that lots of stuff is shipped to Jita. Well, much of that stuff comes from null, low, and W-space, and it is shipped there by "traders".

This whole thread is just a call for more Retrievers and Iterons to be flying around in null, so the null players can shoot them. If null industry is broken, then WTF are you getting titans and supercarriers and hordes of Tier 3 battleships from?

Abrazzar sums up what may be the flaw in null-sec getting enough quality production facilities, when he argues that null should be self sufficient.

Surely the idea is to increase the interaction between the different sectors of Eve?

Give hi-sec folk reasons to go to null - the stake-holder proposal may be one way to do this.

Hi-sec folk staying in hi-sec, lo-sec folk staying in lo-sec and null-sec folk staying in null-sec cannot be good for the game.

Perhaps the way to improve null is to do some blue-sky thinking and come up with some entirely new game-play for that part of the game.

I have no axe to grind in this, I do not care where the ships I fly are manufactured.

If we all had ways to play and prosper in all parts of Eve, perhaps the silly, 'us versus them' would die off, and we could all respect each other and different play-styles.

Let it die. Reading these threads, it sure sounds like you need high sec a lot more than high sec needs you. And that's the part the pisses off the null bears the most.

Null sec has ABC, but they want XYZ.
High sec has XYZ, so nerf high sec.

Sounds fair. Where's my snazzy Vote for Malcanis campaign button?

That null sec should be improved is a no brainer.

But pray tell me, why are 7k+ men alliances in null sec since it's so underwhelming and just bad?

I mean, when perma Hulkageddon became expansive enough, miners stopped mining, CCP detected prices quadruplicating in 2 months and proceeded overbuffing barges.

When incursions proved to rise inflation too much, CCP detected prices rising 10% a year and proceeded nerfing them.

When new FW proved to bring in too much income, CCP detected prices rising and nerfed them as well.



So, which indicator of null sec being unbearable is evidence that CCP is going to nerf hi sec?

- The lack of sov claimed space?

- The impossibility to establish anything but gimpy-small alliances?

- The extreme poverty of the populace in there

- The extremely high prices for high ends minerals due to lack of players to mine them?

- The dire and extreme lack of supercaps because nobody can afford them?

There is still this horrible assumption that nullsec needs to be better at *all aspects of industry* than highsec.

I guess simply being able to do things that can't be done at all in highsec isn't good enough.

I would refer you to the story of the goose that laid the golden eggs.

Bah, being greedy is a point of pride
(I at least try to help out people too, perhaps not as much as you do and mostly just in my alliance)

And that's CCP's question to answer! People have wanted null revamped for years and CCP has decided to work on great features like incarna, highsec wars, and crimewatch instead. Granted they haven't ignored null entirely but the changes made are very few in number and haven't really changed things out here (or have in some cases made things worse), so unfortunately they haven't gained any gratitude from nullsec in that regard.

Better hope that nullsec likes pvp enough to enjoy tiercides and other bones like attack battlecruisers while going through that.

In more optimistic news, CCP has been very effective at getting tiercide done quickly unlike everything else in this game, so *maybe* they'll get through that list faster than years of waiting. Because I may be wrong, but I suspect waiting years will hurt their bottom line.

Maybe you even learned something!

What it really means is you need to break highsec to really make nullsec cry. So, are you willing to take the hit to hurt null?

Please. Tell us again how hard it is for null sec to earn ISK, especially Goons. It's soooooo interesting.

I realized its best to ignore him. He's one of those that ignores almost everything, and simply has a stubborn hatred for Goons.

You have to crush everyone because our alts are everywhere~~~~

Or just ignore Goons all together and do whats right for the longevity of the game.

I never understood peoples obsession with the Goons. Similar to MC, Bob, NC(nodot) they will fall sooner or later, most likely through self implosion.

When it comes to balancing issues something needs to be done with High/Null industry to try and spread people out of High or else the game will stagnate. Which is why personally I have conceded to the idea of nerfs to Highsec. Then again I doubt CCP has the balls to upset anyone in High or do any drastic change to the game.

"I think CCP should let us do X. It's currently impossible within game mechanics for us to do so and we have very good reasons for believing that this would be good for the game."
"Hurr you and hundreds of other people clearly don't understand the game mechanics, you should do X and stop asking CCP to do it for you."

Edit: Here is a fantastic article on the subject: http://themittani.com/features/bottoms-part-one-income-and-industry

What exactly is "the point", because what I am getting are:
a. You are too stupid to figure out how to build **** in null.
b. You are too lazy to build **** in null.
c. You are too greedy to build **** in null.

For all the pissing and moaning about null industry being a hassle, you all can still manage to field huge numbers of capitals, and more importantly, super capitals, which cannot have been built anywhere BUT null. Do you have any comprehension as to how much tritanium and build time it takes to put together even 1 titan? Look it up if you don't and then tell me again how hard it is for your people to build a Rifter.

Do you even DO industry?

also the vast majority of regular capitals are built in lowsec because building them in 0.0 hugely limits the potential market for capital builders, as they would have to be flown hull by hull to lowsec for sale on the open market

i hope i have enlightened you with this tidbit of knowledge

Well, that's a fault in the Alliances, nothing else. However, most seem to have pretty solid ship replacement policies, and many hand out ships as well, so while their members may not have much ISK, they don't lack for capital.

I did a pretty rough and ready check of the stats on EvE Who and EvE-Kill, and it turns out that nullsec alliances, both carebear and PvP, sov holding, and not, WH corps, and hisec alliances all have a pretty consistent ship value loss rate for about 50-100M ISK per pilot (not per account, because that's not data that was available to me) per month. That's it's within the same ballpark across the board (barring a few outliers like Solar Fleet, which loses and kills about double the norm) suggests that nullsec is not at all poor, even after paying sov bills, for infrastructure, and for massive supercap building programs.

Nullsec is not poor and nullsec pilots are not poor in what matters (ships and their consumables). If they were they'd be risking and losing less value than pilots in other areas, and they aren't.

That's a good point, and it will negatively everyone who has to import station fuel, including those in WH space. If they (quite reasonably) pass this increased cost on, WH products will also rise in price.

Here's what's clicking for me:

Industrialists are pets and have to do what they do crawling on their hands and knees in null sec, because they cannot muster any considerable amount of manpower to assist them.

If you can build a titan in null, you can build ANYTHING in null. The difference being that people will actually help you build a titan, but they won't help you build anything that is not at least a corp level asset. THAT is your problem.



Thnk about that dynamic. Maybe it's not just true for capitals. Maybe that might have something to do with why nobody builds Rifters in null, either. It's not like just anyone can dock in your station and buy your merchandise.

Oh look, someone else who doesn't understand the difference between alliance income and player income.

Funny how this discussion never took place with a 40+ page threadnaught while there where more and bigger wars going on in a few years back?And now that half of null is carebearland all of a sudden we got a huge incomeproblem ....

uhuh

I don't need to check that as i said ''when there where bigger wars on'' tell me after the north collapsed a few years back has there been any ''big war'' ? All you got left is huge blobs killing off small blobs and whining that that smaller blob doesn't undock o/TEST looking at you lot .


So again , enlighten me why this is a verry high concern now that big wars are non existant and while technetium income is skyhigh for a large part of null.And again yes it is a large part if you look at the amount of players in the OTEC alliances.

How the hell did alliances like BOB -owwww i dared say it and in comes T2 whining- even stay alive for longer then 1 month beats me , i mean they should have been sucked dry as an alliance and as members the day they stepped into null right?I mean they had constant wars and didn't suck techtitty as much as CFC does yet they're idnustrial backbone was strong and delivered perfectly during wartimes yeaaaaaaaaaars back and we didn't even have JF's / jumpbridges then .


Ahh i know they must have been cheating devs , that's it it all makes sense now.

My my, it's like they all needed a nerf.

Nerf tech by the way, that way nullsec can be a ~true~ harsh and cold wasteland full of ~worthless things~ for ~worthless people~ to fight over. Then maybe they'll learn to appreciate highsec.

i-+ro-+ny [ahy-ruh-nee]
noun, plural i-+ro-+nies.
1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning. Eg: Frying Doom doesn't care about big power blocks, he cares about the little guy. Has "vote for Malcanis" in his forum signature.

Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries.

I support Psychotic Monk for one reason, and one reason only: of all the CSM candidates, he is the only one advocating for emergent, aka player-generated content. Which in my opinion, is something those of you in null sec should be doing...creating your own content instead of asking for handouts.

As a new player, the vast majority of what I see emanating from null is elitism. Most of the null bear advocates seem to think they're above everyone else as if null is some kind of exclusive neighborhood, and the rest of us are just high sec peeons...and I don't even live in high sec.

See, isn't that good enough for ~nullsec~?

Actually I'm but on a tiered scale.

Pretty much as its stated. Installation Cost and price per hour goes up based off of tier level and depending on the item type(mods cost less to build then ships).

If you want to break it down that far sure.

Simply more slots in null. The station owner can set the charge to run them, much like the repair services.

We are literally talking about saving a few thousand per run if the outpost owners chose to charge nothing. You seriously think that will lead to a collape of NPC station use?

POS expenses aren't that high, really. Not when you break it down.

Hi-sec industry isn't factional warfare, its been around for 10 years. It was designed to have a low barrier to entry easy accessibility so that anyone could do it, much like PI has a low barrier to entry. It's "working as intendedGäó".

POS need an utter rework, but thats not going to happen untill at least all the ships have been teircided. Keeping the fix as simple as possible would mean a much quicker fix for null sec industry as far as slots go.

No, it's not blatantly untrue. Quite the contrary, it's blatantly obvious.

Are you SERIOUSLY trying to lead anyone to believe that the lack of industrial players/corps in null sec is due to lack of industrial opportunities? Furthermore, I didn't say that risk avoidance was the only reason, I said it was the main reason. There are others clearly listed in my previous post. Why do null sec alliances do their industry in high sec? The same reason high sec alliances do their industry in high sec. The math isn't that difficult. And if you think risk aversion isn't part of that equation, again, I'd remind you to remove those rose colored glasses.



Maybe you should keep your nose out of posts that have nothing to do with you? You're having a hard enough time keeping up with your own.

This proposal is only in the interests of the great blue blob that owns null sec.

1) Open contacts.
2) Scroll through large list of blue.
3) Remove blue.
4) Congratulations, you just added conflict drivers in null sec.
5) Undock. Assets are now at risk.

Nice dodge.

"Should Null industry > High sec industry?"

No of course not. What kind of re..cursive thinker believes that industry in a war zone should be more profitable than industry in a Non-war zone?

Lockhead Martin doesn't, and they have been building stuff for the war machine for quite some time now. They must be morons who don't recognize how Risk vs Reward should work.
Hummer didn't build Hummers in Bosnia, never did, never will till it becomes a peaceful place where employees can commute to work safely because it would be cost prohibitive to provide an armored hummer to each employee just so they could arrive at work alive...and no guarantee even then with land mines and all.

Boeing (bunch of ***** carebears) thinks it would be insane to build an aircraft factory in Afghanistan (null sec). Suppose a regime (SOV) change occurred in the middle of a run of Bombers ( Ok, no one is building dreads or carriers in HS :P ...insert relevant Eve product)...that would be a HUGE loss to a RL (EVE) corporation, even one that size.

There are no tank manufacturers building tanks in war zones...yet think of the shipping costs they would save with all that heavy product...the Retards!!! Oh wait...they sell their products to Military Reps in Safe Land, and the Military hauls their new shineys to the war zone themselves in C5 Galaxies (Jump Freighters) designed especially for that purpose... Just like in EVE.


Someone way way back in this thread mentioned that the Null sec industry whine is based on a false premise.
"Risk should equal Reward" is insane, or everyone would be doing it, and it would not be risky.

The answer is small alliances will have high risk for their assets.
The big guys will have low risk.

correct it is a cultural thang
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=208832&find=unread
"I don't know these people"

You might want to look up Britain from 1939 to 1945 if you are going down the "this can't happen in RL" route.

Then you can tell me which empire in histroy had no industrial base.